Curse

Navaros · Jul 03, 2007, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

The expansion claims to have 18 Sorrow's Furnace type dungeons (I still say SF was Guild Wars's best update). But will you actually be able to get a PuG for each of those 18 dungeons, or will you just be Hero/Henching each one? (then again, in GWEN you can have 3 Heroes of a single profession, so you can just sleep while you use 3x Searing Flames Heroes)

Also PvE skills, which have received mixed opinions on the forums with respect to their power level, will be a primary aspect of GWEN. With 50 PvE skills, how much of our skill bar will actually be from our primary profession? And with the skills, presumably, comes the grind, which has shown to be a disaster (Hello Kurzick/Luxon Allegiance!)

You don't need 3 SF Heroes to sleep thru PVE whilst you Hero and Hench it. That can already be done with a vast combination of already-available Heroes and Henchies.

Why would anyone want to PUG? I know you yourself, Zinger, have said on this board before that people suck and it doesn't make sense to want to PUG, and you were completely right on that point. Therefore I find it very odd that you are advocating for PUGing in the OP here. Usually good players will never PUG because there is no reason to and doing so is counter-productive. However, mediocre and bad players always PUG because they have to so I'm guessng they will be finding PUGs in the expansion.

I'm guessing the PVE skills will be nerfed to the point of uselessness prior to or shortly after release due to all the complainers on these boards about the Sunspear and Allegiance PVE skills being "overpowered". Those complainers who for some bizarre reason seem find PVE "hard" without those skills even when in reality it is not hard in the least bit therefore making it "less hard" is a completely moot point. And who definitely who don't play HM, else they'd realize that these skills are a good addition to balancing out HM. Which is also one of the reasons they were created in the first place. In any case with the quote from the devs in an interview specifically stating "These PVE skills won't be overpowered", it appears the devs have caved to complainers who find normal mode "hard", therefore you won't have to worry about the PVE skills being "overpowered" (which is probably aka for: they will be totally useless). Although who cares if someone else doesn't have many primary profession skills on his bar, it doesn't affect how you choose to play the game therefore it should be nobody's business but the individual player's.

I'm guessing the PVE skills will have grind similar to Sunspear & Lightbringer instead of grind similar to Allegiance, since when the grind for Allegiance was originally designed there was no skills acquisition tied to that grind hence Allegiance is an example of something being thrust way after the fact into the original design that does not fit properly into the original design. But then again, given that by Gaile's most recent post on the issue it seems the designers of the Allegiance track don't seem to think that it necessarily involes grind and don't seem interested to do too much more to fix it, so I could be wrong on the amount of grind coming up.

Longasc · Jul 03, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

As usual, I expect the best and hope the worst.

Dang, other way round...

..L.. · Jul 03, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by AznDoDo

Many of the funny 'whiner thread' often the person has a female necromancer for their avatar. Some sort of trend?

This is in no way contributing to this thread, are people whining when they disagree with things? I think not, as said before changes anet makes will please one half of the audience and disapoint the other thus its hard to implement changes everyone agrees with. Everyones entitled to his or her oppinion be it positive or negative who are you to judge it. Keep your minds on solving this issue rather then insulting or angering another.

Bryant Again · Jul 03, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ..L..

This is in no way contributing to this thread, are people whining when they disagree with things? I think not, as said before changes anet makes will please one half of the audience and disapoint the other thus its hard to implement changes everyone agrees with. Everyones entitled to his or her oppinion be it positive or negative who are you to judge it. Keep your minds on solving this issue rather then insulting or angering another.

Agreed. Nice avatar, btw.

Ninna · Jul 03, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidic

remake diablo in 3d and call it gw2 and i will buy 20 copies of it

a game you will want to check out is Mythos
http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3159997

Flagship Studios is comprised of members of the original Diablo team

lyra_song · Jul 03, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

The change to the Kurzick/Luxon track is the clearest rationale I've seen that future titles will be based on that type of progression rather than Sunspear. You could get to r8 easily in Sunspear before the PvE-only skill update. However, ArenaNet revamped the Kurzick/Luxon title track while keeping the grind. That clearly lists ArenaNet's agenda; I do not believe that the designers looked at the Allegience title track and said "Oh, no grind here!"

Well the problem is this.

You have a title track designed for 1 function. Keeping track of faction donated. This is so players can say they support their alliance, and help own towns and outposts.

And heres the clincher....You ready?

THE TITLE TRACK IS COMPLETELY OPTIONAL.

And since it is completely optional. IT IS a grind. Lets look at other optional things.

15k armor. Obsidian Armor. Drunkard Title. Cartographer. Protector. Hero. Champion. Gladiator.

Im sure you see where Im going.

---------------------------

Along comes a retroactive update that changes the function. Now the title track doesn't mean that you support your alliance, it just means you spent your faction points.

But this doesnt change the fact that PVE only skills, as well as the title track are also still completely optional.

IF the luxon/kurzick title tracks were mandatory to begin with, then we wouldnt be discussing that this was a grind, since it would be equivalent to the Sunspear skills.

But wait. You have to remember that these title tracks are ACCOUNT WIDE, vs the per character basis of the sunspear skills.

So...what am i saying. Good question...im hungry here and i have a fever. Oh...right.

SS skills - easier, but still grindy since it involves doing it with EVERY character.
Lux/Kurz - takes longer, but affects all characters. Poorly implemented since its a retroactive update.

Mordakai · Jul 03, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

All the dungeons will be taken over by 5-man farming groups where only the elite and holy trinity need apply.
It happened in Sorrows Furnace, it happened in DoA, it happened in UW/FoW and the same fate awaits every other dungeon.

Anet needs to give every class a critical role in each dungeon IMO.

Or, better yet, just make a new Dungeon Runner game.

Oh, wait, NCSoft is doing that already: http://www.ncsoft.com/eng/ncgames/dr_intro.asp

TabascoSauce · Jul 03, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

But this doesnt change the fact that PVE only skills, as well as the title track are also still completely optional.

I think by optional you are lumping in a lot of grey into a simple black and white argument. I have not seen you do this before and am quite frankly a bit surprised.

For clarification, we could extend your argument to state that everything in-game is completely optional, specifically say, armor so that we can discuss a common set of terms and ideas.

You can complete the game without any armor. It makes it more difficult, though. Maybe a reasonable compromise would be to get the freebie starter armor? Or maybe 1.5k?

We all seem to agree that 15K armor or ascended is grind and not relevant to game performance or completion.

So, the armor making things easier puts it into a grey zone? The middle ground seems to be 1.5K - top performance, lowest price. You could make arguments for a change either way, but I have seen you specifically mention that 1.5K is reasonable. So we have identified a reasonable grey zone for armor.

Soooo,lets go back to faction grind. The Warrior skill gives you +100 armor. That's pretty dang hefty, and it would make the game.......easier? You gain access to those skills with a donation of 100 thousand faction, and it tops out a 10 million.

In a separate thread we did the math for grinding faction by "battle of the houses", at 400 kurzick reward for completion. Each run takes about 5 minutes, and if you did not take any breaks, sleep, or whiz, it will take you over 12 hours if you use the faction doubling feature (that is called an exploit), and 25 if you do not. That is 25 hours to just get access to the skills. Seem a bit much? 25 hours of the exact same mission over and over and over. Grindy? Oh yeah, that just gives you 100 thousand. To top it out at 10 Million, multiply that hour figure by 100.

Let me tell you this, I am not even really trying with those numbers, so that is game content that I will not fully experience, because I do not have the time. This game is not that important to me, because it is not feeding the poor, or helping anyone in Darfur. In fact, it is not mowing my lawn either.

Am I mad? Nah, even if they halved the requirements again I would probably not bother.

But I can absolutely recognize grind and meaningless title-based peacockery when I see it. That's my point - cannot speak for Zinger, for she has a mind of her own, but this is so far from the original experience I had with Prophecies that I virtually do not recognize the game.

So we go back to the armor debacle. You can make the very silly argument that it is optional, because you can win without it. The same can be said of the Factions PvE skills, but like armor they make the game easier. +100 Armor easier.

Howard Cosell breakdown: It is not as simple as you are making it out to be. Especially when they come up with the uber-brilliant idea of Lv 28s with half cast times. Or HM. Those +100 armor skills look nice in HM.

Oh yeah, HM is optional too right? I think you ought to re-examine your use of the word optional.

So back to the original point, if this grind and title-based peacockery are the new "in-style" for ANet, then EotN and GW2 will be....disappointing.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Mordakai · Jul 03, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

+100 armor?!?

Ignorance was bliss for me...

Dare I ask about the other skills I will never have...

NM

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Kurzick...uick_reference

Lonesamurai · Jul 03, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

+100 armor?!?

Ignorance was bliss for me...

Dare I ask about the other skills I will never have...

NM

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Kurzick...uick_reference

heh, same...

I personally think its hilarious that some think these skill are nessecary to play the game (instead of the nessecary ones just being given to you like the end game skills in Factions and Nightfall)

Mordakai · Jul 03, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

I'm going to drink really heavy tonight to try and erase any idea these skills ever existed.

TabascoSauce · Jul 03, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

No way dude, as demonstrated in the other thread, you only need to donate (doubled) faction 1000 times to max! So, just take the amount of time it takes you to get the 5000 faction up to donate, and multiply that by 1000!

Easy as Pie!

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Mordakai · Jul 03, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

No way dude, as demonstrated in the other thread, you only need to donate (doubled) faction 1000 times to max! So, just take the amount of time it takes you to get the 5000 faction up to donate, and multiply that by 1000!

Easy as Pie!

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Drinking is easier....

BTW, I'm guessing all the Faction I cashed in before now doesn't count?

TabascoSauce · Jul 03, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Hehe, I'll beat the fan-people-of-indeterminate-gender to the punch! I'll rehash all their arguments here for clarity's sake.

It's optional! Its only +100! You don't have to do it! HM is balanced for it but its optional! But remember, if you don't then PuGs across the multiverse will condescendingly laugh mercilessly at you! You're lazy for not dedicating the four thousand seven hundred and sixty-two hours that I have zealously dedicated to doing this, ignoring food, sleep, safety, and common sense along the way! Why dont you have four thousand, seven hundred and sixty-two hours too? Are you deficient? Stop whining! Get with the program!

Suck it up!

/Sarcasm

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

scrinner · Jul 03, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

If you cashed in for Amber, then no it wont count. The Kurzick skills are tied to your kurzick title progression.

lyra_song · Jul 03, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Oh yeah, HM is optional too right? I think you ought to re-examine your use of the word optional.

The only thing i consider mandatory are things REQUIRED to beat the main storyline of the game.

Strictly in the PvE sense:

15k armor is optional.
Obsidian Armor is optional.
Hardmode is optional.
Getting masters / bonus is optional.
Non-primary quests are optional.
Having skills in your bar is optional.
Having an elite skill is optional.
Having party members is optional.
Bringing a res is optional.
Mini-pets are optional.
PvP is optional.
Dyes are optional.
Max level armor is optional.
Max level weaponry is optional.
PvE skills are optional.
Just about all title tracks are optional.
Some missions are optional (most of prophecies).

(Note....some options can cancel out the option of something else, you cant choose to have NO skills and NO party members at the same time, because nothing would get done and you cannot beat the missions)

Heroes are mandatory (cant beat some missions and quests without em).
Earning 10,000 kurzick or luxon faction to continue in Factions is mandatory.
Earning a certain amount of SS points is mandatory (and since you gain it via primary quests, you have no choice but to accept it).
Beating specific missions are mandatory.

TabascoSauce · Jul 03, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Well I'd have to say that you are far more draconian than the people at ANet.

Evidently they think that some of your optional stuff should come our way. Not as much as I think should be, but that puts us on the same spectrum, just at different points. Your way is far grindier than mine, straight up.

But this interesting sidebar is just that - a sidebar.

To a new, starting player without 2+ years of playing that we have, doing "Battle of the Houses" 250 times to get the 100 thousand faction just to get access to get another 3000 to buy one of the skills? Really? What does that sound like?

Doesnt that sound like grind?

To go back to the subject, if that is their new vision of EotN and GW2? Really? Is this what we want? Optional or not?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

lacasner · Jul 03, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

The only thing i consider mandatory are things REQUIRED to beat the main storyline of the game.

Strictly in the PvE sense:

15k armor is optional.
Obsidian Armor is optional.
Hardmode is optional.
Getting masters / bonus is optional.
Non-primary quests are optional.
Having skills in your bar is optional.
Having an elite skill is optional.
Having party members is optional.
Bringing a res is optional.
Mini-pets are optional.
PvP is optional.
Dyes are optional.
Max level armor is optional.
Max level weaponry is optional.
PvE skills are optional.
Just about all title tracks are optional.
Some missions are optional (most of prophecies).

This isn't true, well completely true. All you need is a cash, so you can pay a mission and campaign completer. In the strict sense of JUST beating the storyline.

Onarik Amrak · Jul 03, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Playing the game at all is rather optional if you ask me.

Lagg · Jul 03, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Posting the same threads over and over again is optional.